Randall Randall ([info]randallsquared) wrote,
@ 2007-01-11 13:35:00
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Fermi Paradox and the expansion of technological civilizations
I've gotten into this discussion repeatedly, recently. So I've decided to expand further on my blog, here.



Certainly this is not the most exhaustive or airtight version of this argument, but it's one that attempts to anticipate most of the objections which I, personally, keep seeing raised in conversation with me. If you're interested in this topic, a google search on "fermi paradox" in conjuntion with replicators or "von Neumann" might be useful. I've included links that have supporting information at the bottom.

The core of the argument is this: any technological civilization (TC) will expand to make use of any resources near it. For the timescales involved in the lifetime of the universe, every star in our galaxy is nearby. Therefore, if there were any TC in our galaxy, our star would already be a managed star. Further, if we can see a galaxy that looks like ours (in the sense that there are obviously billions of stars wasting energy), we can deduce that there is no TC in that galaxy.

This means that either we're the first TC in our past light cone (minus a few thousand years) or something stops TCs from expanding.

Maybe expanding is just too hard?

Well, that doesn't seem to be the case, from what we know today. It's clear that unless our civilization collapses entirely, we'll have molecular manufacturing within the century, and with that, conversion of the entire solar system into finished product is only energy limited. That is, hundreds or thousands of years, not millions. Once a TC has expanded into its own solar system with molecular manufacturing, it seems a small leap to send machines to prep the nearest solar system for similar conversion. Average distance in the galaxy is not much higher than the distance between here and the nearest non-Sol star, and using laser boost, a few kilograms of smart replicator could be sent there quickly.

If everything moves slowly, then, we'll get full use of the solar system resources within, perhaps, a thousand years. Assuming very few resources are used to send replicators to other solar systems, within, say, 10 light years, and to make the numbers nice and round, we'll assume that replicators are sent to arrive at the new solar system just as the old one is fully utilized (a tiny, tiny fraction of the Sun's output would be required to boost a few hundred replicators to the nearest solar systems, and the payoff is immense, since each one opens up approximately the same amount of resources, on average, as our entire solar system).

So, in this just-so story, it takes a thousand years to develop each 10 light years of diameter in an expanding shell, corresponding to an expansion speed of 1% of light speed, which seems extremely reasonable. Remember, we're not even shipping anything large over interstellar distances: just replicators of a few kilograms each, and information, later.

The Milky Way is about 100,000 light years in diameter, which means that unless we're destroyed or something totally new crops up to stop us, our civilization will have completely utilized the galaxy in 10 million years. This is a conservative estimate, as it assumes that no one goes exploring across the galaxy by themselves. If that happens, or if any of this is done in a more parallel fashion, the galaxy could be completely utilized in only a million years.

Let's define "completely utilized". In order to capture most of the energy from the Sun (energy that is otherwise wasted into empty space), we'll need to put solar collectors in orbit around it. Since the light from the Sun will then be hitting them and converted into useful energy and waste heat, from the viewpoint of nearby stars, it would appear as though our Sun had suddenly begun emitting only in infrared. As our wavefront of processing expands across the galaxy, it would take a growing, visible bite out of the Milky Way as seen from well outside our galaxy. After the galaxy was completely utilized, the vast majority of the visible output of the stars in it would be absorbed, and the entire galaxy would be full of stars that emitted only in infrared.

If some other species had begun expanding in our galaxy at anytime before the last hundred thousand years, therefore, we would either not exist (since our planet would not have existed to evolve on), or we would be able to see an area of infrared-only stars.

Further, if any other species had begun expanding *anywhere* within our past light cone (minus a paltry few hundred thousand years), we should be able to see the area which they'd expanded into as an area of stars curiously dim, or only in the infrared. All the same logic applies to colonizing the nearest galaxies as well.

In hundreds of thousands of years of practice (assuming no new laws of physics), one would expect this process to become very efficient, such that completely utilizing a galaxy like our own would require only slightly more than travel time to it. Even remaining with the 1% of lightspeed estimate, however, the following things are clear:

There is no civilization in our galaxy older than a few tens of thousands of years, and since we're here, and since it is hard to imagine any catastrophe which could befall a species spread across hundreds or thousands of light years, we can further deduce that there *never has been* any such civilization.

There is no civilization anywhere in the past light cone of our location a hundred thousand years ago, because if there were, they would be clearly visible, having darkened large parts of the visible sky by now.

The first civilization to arise will naturally prevent others from arising in its own future light cone (except right on the edges of it), simply because there will be nowhere to evolve. The fact that we exist and the universe around us seems untouched, therefore, means that we're the first.

What if no one wants to do this?

It only takes a single individual in a sufficiently rich civilization (and we appear to be close to being sufficiently rich!), and there are already multiple individuals who want to do this kind of thing in ours.

What if FTL (faster than light travel) is possible?

FTL makes this argument *more* compelling, since it could all happen faster. That said, we don't need FTL to expand across the known universe very quickly (in astronomical time).

Surely there's more to physics than we now know; maybe there's something that would stop this.

So far, learning more about our world has always expanded our capabilities, rather than contracted them. Everything here is based on current-day physics, so even if there are major new discoveries to be made, it seems unlikely that they would make this process slower or less likely. Rather the opposite.

[more objections will go here as I hear them]

Miscellaneous links for further reading:

http://www.aeiveos.com:8080/~bradbury/MatrioshkaBrains/index.html
(all interesting, but especially http://www.aeiveos.com:8080/~bradbury/MatrioshkaBrains/PlntDssmbly.html )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_cone
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa004&articleID=000CC344-B043-1353-AF3383414B7FFE9F
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star#Distribution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky_Way
http://www.rfreitas.com/Astro/ReproJBISJuly1980.htm

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Well...
[info]seawasp
2007-01-11 07:34 pm UTC (link)
... There's many other explanations.

1) They've been through here many times. They just don't USE everything. By your logic, on similar timescales, Yellowstone Park should not exist. We *ARE* everwhere in the world, even places that we really CAN'T live. Yet there are places on any reasonable-sized scale where we AREN'T. Some of them, places where we WERE but have deliberately left.

2) They have been. And they've died off. Even the dinosaurs -- who were a great big mass of species, not just one -- lasted only a few tens of millions of years. Maybe we'll find their ruins on Mars, or elsewhere.

3) They're out there. And they'll kill any competition when it appears.

4) Lucky timing.

5) You don't see it because you don't know what to look for (see James Nicoll's recent blog entry on the Convenient Hyperspace Construction possibility). If that phenomenon turns out to actually be possible, you might not see anything because all the stuff we're looking for is being done through a non-sensed spatial connection; any reasonably advanced civilization learns this trick within a few hundred years of becoming what we could consider high tech, so you only have a less-than-thousand year window in which to actually sense them.

6) They're not interested for the most part. Yes, individuals can go out and explore the universe, but the INDIVIDUALS aren't going to actually take over the universe. You'd need large numbers to do that, and if the species is by and large not interested, they will grow fairly slowly... and again, if we're talking "millions of years" may die off long before then.

7) They're out there, but they're not interested in our type of planet, and are otherwise hard to detect. So we'll meet them whenever we reach the right type of world.

This kind of argument goes round and round and never resolves, because it's based on assumptions which may, or may not, be true, and on conditions which we don't know sufficiently.

Hell, there's always

8) They're there, they MADE us, because we ARE them.

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Re: Well...
[info]randallsquared
2007-01-11 08:27 pm UTC (link)
1) Only a single individual of such a species has to choose to use everything for my conclusions to hold.

2) Only if they never got off their planet in force, meaning they never developed molecular manufacturing (nanotech). Once you posit that other such species exist, though, it has to be that *all* of them failed to get off their planet, which means a general argument of "maybe technological civilizations *always* die off". All we know about that, though, in the absence of data or a good theory, is that we haven't. Yet.

3) Doesn't seem to conflict with my argument, except that they're actively hostile, rather than just expansionist.

4) Could be. Reduces to my argument that we're the only ones, though, I think.

5) Only if they find such a trick that opens up such an easier place to get resources (of whatever kind), that it's laughably pointless to try to exploit the galaxy they evolved in. I can buy that as a possibility, but it depends on physics that there's no obvious hint of, yet.

6) Individuals certainly can take over the universe. I'm not sure you've thought about the multiplying effect of molecular manufacturing. :) It would seem that von Neumann replicators enable even a single individual of any otherwise disinterested society to fulfill my argument, above.

7) This implies a curiously limited technology, which probably won't suffice for leaving their world anyway. A few hundred years after the period where this applies, they'll be converting everything to raw material to build more of what they like, just as we will. And then my above argument applies.

8) The only way I can make sense of thise (reconciled with what we know of the universe so far) is if you're suggesting the Simulation Argument. ( http://www.simulation-argument.com/ ) As far as I can tell, this is the only reasonable argument against "we're approximately the first".

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Well...
[info]david_lucifer
2007-01-13 06:14 pm UTC (link)
Another interpretation of (5) is that due to distances involved in expansion it is more economical for the TC to take the "inner path" of nanotech and VR. Maybe they've abandoned the surface of their planet and filled the crust with enough computronium to support trillions of civilizations of trillions of uploaded individuals and AIs.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Well...
[info]randallsquared
2007-01-13 07:07 pm UTC (link)
I actually assume that this will be the case, but the most efficient use of the planetary crust is still to spread it out to catch more sunlight, if no major new energy sources are found. (By "major", here, I mean on the scale of the Sun itself).

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Not so.
[info]seawasp
2007-01-11 10:16 pm UTC (link)
RE 1): One individual choosing to "Use Everything" would work for that ONE individual. As long as he didn't step on the OTHER individuals' toes.

One individual here, for instance, can say "I think I want to build a log cabin!"

He has the tools. He has the knowledge.

If he tries to do this in Yellowstone Park, however, he will find that just because he CAN do a thing, doesn't mean he MAY do that thing.

One individual, or a billion, from a civilization that values actually having "wild" areas of the universe, will still not affect the wild areas of the universe.

We didn't START OUT valuing such things, but we do NOW, and with more advanced tech we can actually avoid doing damage to other areas MORE easily than we used to. If you're going to be using us as the baseline for your assumptions, you need to look at those facts too. Hell, the scientists don't want probes coming near, for instance, Europa, just in case they might contaminate it with Earth life. Extend current civilization by orders of magnitude, and what you could have would be huge "civilized" areas of the universe and very large "wild" areas of the universe.

On 2): I'm using Earth history -- of which we occupy a very, very, very very small slice -- as the exemplar. As a general rule, species die off. Are there going to be human beings a million years from now? I really dunno, but going by prior species history, any given species has a low survival factor. Sure, you can say "well, no big disasters", but hell, that's as speculative as anything else (including handwavy nanotechnology superstuff. I love handwavy nanotechnology superstuff for writing, but I remain unconvinced of its super-universal potential) since we HAVE NO DATA on species living on multiple separate worlds.

3: I guess it's a matter of accepting your argument that logically any species will "completely use" stuff -- like, to the point of building Dyson Spheres out of every single solar system in the universe -- or not. I don't even believe WE will, or that we would PERMIT it.

4: Not necessarily. Just means that there are X species of intelligence out there who got started recently. "Lucky timing", as I said. Perhaps only stars that formed after X time had enough metals or whatever for our type of life, and it takes some amount of time for life to evolve, etc., and it just so happens that it's all coming together... right now. We're ONE OF the first, in that case, but not necessarily THE first.

6: To me, this is considering the individual in a vacuum, and ignoring any of the human behavioral characteristics that would prevent one individual from doing so. We don't LET people do that stuff, even if they have the resources to do so. We keep parks. We reserve land for later. We sometimes SHOOT people for trying to use stuff that we own, but aren't using, and have no particular intention TO use, simply because... it's OURS. I don't think ANY civilization is going to do what you describe, to be honest. That's a Bacterial Civilization, expanding without any limit or control or even thought, absorbing everything in a completely unswerving and unchecked manner. You're trying to use us as an exemplar, except that the evidence is that, on average, we do LESS of that now than we did even a few hundred years ago. A thousand years from now, when any individual can have as much entertainment, food, etc., as they can handle, and choose to reproduce, or not, and possibly live as long as they choose... we will have even less reason to do that. Reproductive rates tend to DROP in the more advanced countries. In ones at the level of advancement you're postulating, it's just as reasonable to argue that their population increase will be slow, measured, and even deliberately limited as it is to postulate Yeast Growth Curve.

7 again requires me to believe in the super magical engineering nanotech, which I'm really not sure I accept.

8: No, I was saying that WE are a product OF their engineering. It's quite possible that their "spread" and "use" approach is very different. Such as dropping seed biologicals on appropriate worlds and watching what develops. The simulation argument is a very different one.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Not so.
[info]randallsquared
2007-01-13 08:19 pm UTC (link)
Hrm. "Your comment exceeds the maximum of 4300 characters".

I'll post this as a new post in my blog, then. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Not so.
[info]seawasp
2007-01-13 10:19 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, the response to which you replied was significantly longer, and I cut it down to fit the space. I don't think comments should have limits, at least not ones shorter than say 5,000 words (25000 characters). If I can write that much in one sitting, I shouldn't have to cut it down or post it in 4 separate posts.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

I guess my chief bit of feedback
[info]smitty1e
2007-01-11 11:44 pm UTC (link)
is that you assert that existing TCs are similar enough in terms of 'exhaust product' to ours that we should observe existent ones.
Kind of like watching a sci-fi flick where most of the aliens look like people in goofy costumes.
Maybe existing TCs are congruent enough with our civilization; maybe not.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: I guess my chief bit of feedback
[info]seawasp
2007-01-12 07:29 pm UTC (link)
Well, the thing is that from what we know of physics, there WOULD be such exhaust products. Even for the super-advanced Dyson-sphere builders: they're still manipulating matter with energy, which will at the least generate and radiate exhaust heat in some pretty darn characteristic patterns.

Sure, you could postulate Completely New Physics that permits, oh, true reactionless drives or something, but that's really out on a limb.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: I guess my chief bit of feedback
[info]randallsquared
2007-01-13 07:11 pm UTC (link)
No matter what kind of TC it is, if it follows the laws of thermodynamcis, there will be waste heat, and the most efficient processes that are convenient will be used, resulting in a very large, low temperature heat source, as viewed from the outside. If there's a large gap between the temperature of the background (3K) and the temperature of the TC overall, more stages can be added to extract the difference as usable work.

If a TC doesn't obey the law of thermodynamics, we're in magic physics territory from our current understanding, and this whole argument is moot, akin to seawasp's number five, above.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]chris_goodwin
2007-01-12 12:33 am UTC (link)
Everything makes sense to the extent of my knowledge. I can't find anything to argue with.

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